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Date:	11/26/99 6:26:59 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Friday, November 26 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1402<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re Cold War<BR>
Re Certification<BR>
Re: Superpowers<BR>
Re: Superpowers<BR>
Re: Skip Tracing<BR>
Re: Superpowers<BR>
Re: Superpowers<BR>
Re: Re Certification of PC's<BR>
Re: Cold War<BR>
Re: Re Cold War<BR>
Re: Remulak<BR>
Re: Traveller Planetary Assaults<BR>
Re: Imperial culture<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED God bless America<BR>
Re: Superpowers<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 12:14:46 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Cold War<BR>
<BR>
>And even if it did, that would be nowhere near "wiping out all life on earth<BR>
>several times over". In fact, it wouldn't even wipe it out once over, as<BR>
>previous ice ages  have shown.<BR>
><BR>
>I suggest you actually examine the evidence in future before repeating this<BR>
>sort of popular bull.<BR>
><BR>
>Frankie.<BR>
><BR>
Frankie, the number of weapons deployed was definitely enough to wipe out<BR>
civilization as we know it. The US had at least one warhead per city of<BR>
50,000 persons in the Soviet Block (USSR & Warsaw Pact). The USSR had<BR>
enough warheads for stauration of the same. The total tonnage Per World<BR>
Capita was 2.5KT per person on the planet (assuming a planetary Pop of 5<BR>
Billion) [Time Magazine, 1990 or so, similar data published in Defense<BR>
Weekly in about 87] Since most (75%) of the worlds population lives in<BR>
concentrations where 2.5KT could easily wipe out more than 20 persons...<BR>
<BR>
Add to that the non-nuclear armaments: Chem, Bio, and FAE, and the raw<BR>
destructive capacity that was DEPLOYED was Mutual Assured Destruction of<BR>
SOCIETIES. When you can drop a 0.5GT Warhead on EVERY production center in<BR>
the warsaw pact, and the Warsaw Pact can do the same to N. America and<BR>
Western Europe, that, as far as I am concerned, is enough to end the world<BR>
as we know it. And this doesn't count those 8" 2.5KT Artillery Nukes. I've<BR>
read the US Army's FM on them (I know, I shouldn't have)... They were field<BR>
deployed.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone who claims the Cold war was just a dream obviously slept through the<BR>
whole thing. I've met far too many polish and russian ex-patriots, and too<BR>
many of my US fellow citizens, who've lived in terror because they know<BR>
just how close nuclear war really came to being. People who are aware of<BR>
just how often DefCon 2 has been reached. People whose jobs have been to Be<BR>
Ready.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: There can be no comparable threat against the Imperium. Due to the<BR>
distances involved, and the scales of targets, any atrocities done will be<BR>
at worst a slow wave-front moving inward. Even the Star Trigger, if it<BR>
worked, is a marginally viable threat... you still have to deliver it.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 12:22:01 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Certification<BR>
<BR>
>William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
><snip><BR>
><BR>
>Splonk!!!  <--- Noise  of  William's  certification  rules  being<BR>
>                lifted wholesale and grafted into MTU.<BR>
><BR>
You're most welcome.<BR>
I've tweaked skill requirements from time to time....<BR>
In order to make it work so that characters have a chance at the higher<BR>
ratings, during CGen I have modified the skill acquisition procedure: Roll<BR>
the die THEN pick the table!<BR>
<BR>
>I like.<BR>
><BR>
>Of course now I run the risk of a  PC  (with  the  initials  AJR)<BR>
>going into the engineering exam, writing "I am a fish" 500 times,<BR>
>and passing out.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm... I think that might get his whole ticket suspended.... Or possibly<BR>
him detained for "Waisting IISS Time"... Definitely a hasty attempt....<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 10:27:38 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Superpowers<BR>
<BR>
> >I'm sorry Glenn, but you're completely wrong on this one.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >There are not, and have never been, enough nuclear weapons on the planet<BR>
to<BR>
> >completely wipe out even a single moderate sized country , say France,<BR>
let<BR>
> >alone the entire world.<BR>
><BR>
> I think that you underestimate the level of possible damage.<BR>
<BR>
No, I don't.<BR>
<BR>
While your arguments are all valid, I was _specifically_ countering Glenn's<BR>
suggestion that there are enough nuclear weapons to wipe out all life on<BR>
earth several times ago.<BR>
<BR>
Some specific points :<BR>
<BR>
> Let's talk EMP  damage for starters.<BR>
> If you don't think the death toll in North America and<BR>
> Europe wouldn't be horrendous I think that you're mistaken. Hundreds of<BR>
> millions would die just because the infrastructure gacked when all of the<BR>
> electronics stopped working. Without the infrastructure the countries<BR>
would<BR>
> cease to exist. There would be starvation, epidemic, riots, looting, etc.<BR>
> At the height of the cold war multiple warheads were armed at almost every<BR>
> section of the American continent.  Almost every state had more than one<BR>
> target, even if only military assets were hit. The balance of the U.S.<BR>
> population lives in these areas. The separated enclaves that might survive<BR>
> would no longer be a civilization, at least not a 20th century tech level<BR>
> civilization.<BR>
<BR>
I agree that the die-off rate in industrialized countries would be huge.<BR>
The estimates are something like a 8-10% kill immediately on the first wave<BR>
with about 70% secondary kill (i.e: through starvation, radiation, rioting,<BR>
etc.).<BR>
<BR>
That's a lot of death and sufferring, but,  even a 99% kill of humans in<BR>
industrialized nations is _nowhere_near_ eliminating the human race or<BR>
destroying the planet, and the technological level of the survivors is<BR>
completely irrelevant to my argument (though if you want to argue that<BR>
seperately I do reckon technlogy would not just dissappear as all the<BR>
post-apocalypse stories seem to asume. )<BR>
<BR>
> This ignores the general level of radioactive fallout that would exist.<BR>
The<BR>
> accident in Chernobyl result in a measurable increase in radionucleides in<BR>
> the milk of dairy cows as far away as Norway.<BR>
<BR>
Although from memory, that research is questionable, as there were no base<BR>
data to show that there had, in fact, been an increase. It just showed that<BR>
the levels now were higher than expected.<BR>
<BR>
> The probable levels of<BR>
> radiation from the blasts and level of contamination from the fallout<BR>
would<BR>
> make the lives of the survivors very unpleasant.<BR>
<BR>
This is true, though again I feel the effects have been overrated. I believe<BR>
studies on the effects of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs have shown that<BR>
while people at the time and their immediate descendants had/have noticeable<BR>
effects, third generation offspring are not any more likely to suffer<BR>
effects than others.<BR>
<BR>
> Even just a couple of years of nuclear winter would result in a huge<BR>
number<BR>
> of deaths. We are a society where ever small numbers of people raise the<BR>
> food for the population as a whole. The loss of the ability to do this<BR>
alone<BR>
> would result in large numbers of deaths.<BR>
<BR>
Note the point is that _you_ are in a society where small numbers raise<BR>
food.<BR>
The majority of the world's population are not in such a society.<BR>
<BR>
I fully agree that the US, Europe, & Japan would be stuffed.<BR>
Whether I think that's a bad thing or not depends on my attitude at the<BR>
time.<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 11:03:49 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Superpowers<BR>
<BR>
> >I'm sorry Glenn, but you're completely wrong on this one.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >There are not, and have never been, enough nuclear weapons on the planet<BR>
to<BR>
> >completely wipe out even a single moderate sized country , say France,<BR>
let<BR>
> >alone the entire world.<BR>
> ><BR>
>         [SINP]<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I suggest you actually examine the evidence in future before repeating<BR>
this<BR>
> >sort of popular bull.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Frankie.<BR>
><BR>
>         Um, could you substantiate your postition?  How many warheads are<BR>
> there and how many cities?<BR>
<BR>
I don't have the appriopriate reference handy (and even those are edcuated<BR>
estimates as the exact figures are kept secret)  but from memory the US only<BR>
has _produced_ in the _tens_ of thousands of nuclear warheads since they<BR>
began production, (from memory around 40,000, of which the majority are no<BR>
longer viable & have been scrapped)  and the USSR has produced less . Even<BR>
adding in China,  France, England, Israeils, Indians and Pakisanis, I doubt<BR>
there are many more than 100,000 nuclear warheads extant today. Heck, based<BR>
on current figures I may be remembering the figures larger than they are.<BR>
<BR>
How many cities ? I don't know, but I suspect there are more than a 100,000<BR>
cities in the North America alone, depending on your definition of city.<BR>
<BR>
Even if I'm out by a factor of ten in the wrong way, and there's a million<BR>
warheads out there, the effective radius of even the largest nukes is no<BR>
more than thirty miles. If you do the math, you'll find that even with a<BR>
million  nukes that's only a fraction of the surface of the planet.<BR>
<BR>
And that assumes that the nukes are set off to cover maximum area, which is<BR>
_highly_ unlikely. In the event of a full scale nuclear war (again, highly<BR>
unlikely, but just assuming) , some nuke's would never be launched or not go<BR>
off, others would be destroyed by ABM and AA systems, others would be used<BR>
for exoatmospheric EMP and intelligence denial , some targets would be<BR>
designated for overkill, and others would be given military targets well<BR>
away from large population centers (such as naval fleet concentrations and<BR>
"second-strike" SSBNs )<BR>
<BR>
BTW, from references I do have handy,  ( Strategy & Tactics) the numbers  in<BR>
the 70's were even lower. At that time the number of US delivery systems was<BR>
about 22,000 with the USSR having about 14,000. While they had more warheads<BR>
than delivery systems, including the nuclear shells for the old Long Tom,<BR>
and the fact that some delivery systems were MIRV,  the difference between<BR>
delivery systems and warheads is not practically useful.<BR>
<BR>
Also, according to the latest S&T, the US currently only has 580 ICBM's and<BR>
432 SLBNs in 18 SSBNs. Russia has 800 ICBM's and 540 SLBNs in 22 SSBNs.<BR>
<BR>
The second thing is that nuclear weaponry is no longer the main weapon of<BR>
detterrence. As it says in "In Athena's Camp" (John Arquilla, 1997) and<BR>
other recent  military doctrine studies, it is now quite likely that a<BR>
technological force, such as the US military, could destroy the majority of<BR>
amn enemy nuclear power's nuke forces on the ground in a first strike using<BR>
_conventional_ weapons, thus avoiding the PR problems of launching a nuclear<BR>
first strike.<BR>
<BR>
People have always overestimated the nuclear power's capability to wage<BR>
nuclear war, and it is becoming increasingly a secondary capacity to other<BR>
doctrines such as AirLand Battle 2000, C2 (or C4ISR, depending on your<BR>
politics), and Informtuion Warfare<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:06:29 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Skip Tracing<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> Hmm, must be november...time for the Traveller <> Real Life rant.;-)<BR>
<BR>
No, not at all... anyway, I did say<BR>
<BR>
> > There may be some assumptions that I'm missing out on though.<BR>
<BR>
> In real life, yes. In real life Traveller wold be dull boring and no fun.<BR>
> A real-life depiction of prison is boring, brutish and not very<BR>
> interesting. Notice, in the game that started this thread, placing the<BR>
> characters on that prison world ended the game.<BR>
<BR>
Well, to be realistic and still semi-interesting, I would leave the<BR>
planet untouched, make the criminals smart, but fairly un-metallurgically<BR>
inclined and have the players do the good stuff like smelting pig iron<BR>
and rolling it out into some sort of orbital launch vehicle.<BR>
<BR>
For PCs to do the ridiculous to impossible, sure. But not _everyone_.<BR>
<BR>
> "The first of you are lead to the altar, where a goat-thing with huge<BR>
> muscular arms splits you in half."<BR>
> <BR>
> "Ok, lets play something different now...")<BR>
<BR>
Hm. Fun campaign. Maybe he had to go to the bathroom and didn't <BR>
want you looking through his notes...<BR>
<BR>
> What Leonard, (and all those SF writers) are doing is setting up a far<BR>
> more cinematic universe, where criminals are evil geniuses (repeat after<BR>
> me: "Before I kill you, Mr. Bond..." ;-) Player characters could even<BR>
> think about owning ships, let alone run around with battledress, and life<BR>
> is interesting enough for people to play escapist games about it.<BR>
<BR>
<scott evil><BR>
Dad, just let me kill him! I'll bust a cap in his head!<BR>
</scott evil><BR>
<BR>
<dr.evil><BR>
No, I'll lower him excruciatingly slowly into a shark filled tank...<BR>
</dr.evil><BR>
<BR>
<scott evil><BR>
But I've got the gun right here! Pow! Bam! Dead!<BR>
</scott evil><BR>
<BR>
<dr.evil><BR>
Scott, go to your room.<BR>
</dr.evil><BR>
<BR>
Interesting != totally unrealistic.<BR>
<BR>
(Well, maybe for some people, but I doubt they play anything as<BR>
pedestrian as Traveller. AD&D or Vampire maybe)<BR>
<BR>
This is the TML where people debate about whether free trader<BR>
ships, as designed in canon, can be used to run a profitable business <BR>
and set up analysis frameworks to work within. And did I mention<BR>
priates? (ducks)<BR>
<BR>
I mean, I am posting this to the TML right? <BR>
<BR>
Anyway, I'm not totally fond of cinematic super-villans, so <BR>
maybe that's it. Super or not, even if we have a bunch of<BR>
SCA-trained blacksmiths on killing sprees, so what if they<BR>
get the metal? What are they going to build? A railroad?<BR>
Skyscrapers? The Sydney Opera House? (hm, given a few hundred<BR>
years, I guess a bunch of criminals could build the Syndey<BR>
Opera House...)<BR>
<BR>
Getting off-planet is about more than technology and knowledge,<BR>
it takes a big economy, which a prison planet just doesn't<BR>
have.<BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                        egh@klg.com<BR>
Java Evangelist, KL Group                   http://www.klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 16:07:39 -0600<BR>
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Superpowers<BR>
<BR>
On 11/27/99 at 10:27 AM,  "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Note the point is that _you_ are in a society where small numbers<BR>
>raise food. The majority of the world's population are not in such a society.<BR>
<BR>
>I fully agree that the US, Europe, & Japan would be stuffed. <BR>
<BR>
And so would India and mainland China from intentional, revenge, and<BR>
incidental hits and general fallout patterns.  In a general war, I<BR>
expect industral centers in the southern hemisphere would also be<BR>
hit...on the general principle of "if I die so do you."  And, of<BR>
course, many of the southern hemisphere countries aren't as<BR>
self-suffecient today as they were a hundred years ago, so they<BR>
might be well above the carrying capacity of the land without<BR>
chemical fertilizers, hybrid seeds, petrochemicals, and antibiotics.<BR>
<BR>
Loss of all life on earth, no, not even all human life.  I wouldn't<BR>
be surprised if it was 80% to 90% worldwide.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, this is the sort of thing I really wouldn't want to put<BR>
to a test. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 11:12:40 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Superpowers<BR>
<BR>
> "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > There are not, and have never been, enough nuclear weapons on the planet<BR>
to<BR>
> > completely wipe out even a single moderate sized country , say France,<BR>
let<BR>
> > alone the entire world.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, Frank, I don't know if that's the point...<BR>
<BR>
It is the point I'm arguing, certainly, though you may not be interested in<BR>
that point.<BR>
<BR>
 > If we imagine a hypothetical situation where you're approached by someone<BR>
who<BR>
> you know for absolutely certain can beat the living hell out of you, who<BR>
has<BR>
> a bat and says<BR>
><BR>
>  "I'm going to break every bone in your body"<BR>
><BR>
> Are you going to tell him that it's not possible to break _every_ bone<BR>
> and that chances are you'll still be left with most of your soft tissues<BR>
> and internal organs intact?<BR>
<BR>
The problem with the analogy is that the guy with the bat has _far_ more<BR>
chance of "breaking every bone in your body" than the nuclear powers have of<BR>
"wiping out every living thing on earth ten times over" which is what I was<BR>
disagreeing with.<BR>
<BR>
> My personal reaction would be to accept his thesis and ponder its finer<BR>
> points from a bit further away.<BR>
<BR>
Mine would be to strike first, taking out his sensor capability, in your<BR>
analogy, his eyes, which doesn't require brute strength, merely  finesse,<BR>
and _then_ avoid his bat. Heck, once his eyes were out of the way, he might<BR>
not even be a danger aymore. This is in fact what the US military has done,<BR>
and is why nuclear weapons are no longer the "big stick".<BR>
<BR>
> The point is that it's not something we ever want to even try to<BR>
> verify empirically, so debating it is kind of irrelevant.<BR>
<BR>
Except in that if people have an irrational fear of something, it may blind<BR>
them to more dangerous things.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, I believe in "Share what you know, learn what you don't"  and that<BR>
is my major motivation for disputing the misinformation that Glenn was<BR>
spreading.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 16:15:35 -0600<BR>
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Certification of PC's<BR>
<BR>
On 11/25/99 at 11:47 PM,  "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>IMTU, under MT, I require the following for holding a ticket:<BR>
>Unrated: Computer-0, Vacc Suit-0, Speak Galanglic. (This rating a<BR>
>prerequisite for ALL ship crew tickets which follow) There is an<BR>
>exception to galanglic made for Droyne. Droyne are required to speak<BR>
>galanglic to test for Master's liscences.<BR>
<BR>
>Rated Tickets:<BR>
>Pilot: Pilot-1, Commo-0, Sensor Ops-1<BR>
>Navigator: Navigation-1, Computer-1, Sensor Ops-1,<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Yes!  This precisely what I'm talking about.  I won't post my<BR>
complete list, as it is similar to William's.<BR>
<BR>
I *do* hope that Marc and Loren look closely at this list.  Please,<BR>
include something like it in future editions of Traveller.  It will<BR>
help even old-timers generate characters that can really *do* the<BR>
jobs they are aiming to take in the party.<BR>
<BR>
And, don't you think this sort of thing is *better* than GURPS<BR>
templates?  Don't give me 90% of a character, just the minimum<BR>
skills the PC needs for various positions and I'll mix and match to<BR>
produce the PC I want.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:42:07 -0500<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Cold War<BR>
<BR>
William,<BR>
    First off I want to say that I agree with the concept and premise of<BR>
your post. I did want to add some filler on your comment about Defcon's.<BR>
While I was in the Army (1969-1989) we went to Defcon 2 once and Defcon 3<BR>
three times. Now for the most part (earlier in my career) I might have been<BR>
unaware of exactly what was happening and missed something, but during the<BR>
latter half of my career I was more than involved.  As far as I know we<BR>
never even adjusted the Defcon status (we were at 4 because of terrorist<BR>
threats {Bader Meinhoff [sp?]} to our ground forces in Germany) when for<BR>
example the barracks was bombed in Beirut. As a matter of fact we didn't<BR>
change Defcon for our invasion of Grenada just 2 days later. (Oct. 23, 1983<BR>
& Oct. 25, 1983, respectively). The same could be said of our failed rescue<BR>
attempt in Iran in 1980. It was at 4 because of the hostage situation and it<BR>
never changed. It was rare indeed to see a change in Defcon to higher than<BR>
4.<BR>
    More interesting is the fact that the military uses "Threatcon" now to<BR>
warn of impending danger. I was over at Hanscom AFB, MA and the signs<BR>
("Threatcon Alpha") were everywhere. Actually they have been up for almost a<BR>
year now. This has nothing to with Defcon but (I believe) possible terrorist<BR>
activity. Maybe some of you who are on active duty now can explain this new<BR>
(to me) term.<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris<BR>
<BR>
BTW - I think you meant 0.05 GTon in your post.........<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 1999 4:14 PM<BR>
Subject: Re Cold War<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >And even if it did, that would be nowhere near "wiping out all life on<BR>
earth<BR>
> >several times over". In fact, it wouldn't even wipe it out once over, as<BR>
> >previous ice ages  have shown.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I suggest you actually examine the evidence in future before repeating<BR>
this<BR>
> >sort of popular bull.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Frankie.<BR>
> ><BR>
> Frankie, the number of weapons deployed was definitely enough to wipe out<BR>
> civilization as we know it. The US had at least one warhead per city of<BR>
> 50,000 persons in the Soviet Block (USSR & Warsaw Pact). The USSR had<BR>
> enough warheads for stauration of the same. The total tonnage Per World<BR>
> Capita was 2.5KT per person on the planet (assuming a planetary Pop of 5<BR>
> Billion) [Time Magazine, 1990 or so, similar data published in Defense<BR>
> Weekly in about 87] Since most (75%) of the worlds population lives in<BR>
> concentrations where 2.5KT could easily wipe out more than 20 persons...<BR>
><BR>
> Add to that the non-nuclear armaments: Chem, Bio, and FAE, and the raw<BR>
> destructive capacity that was DEPLOYED was Mutual Assured Destruction of<BR>
> SOCIETIES. When you can drop a 0.5GT Warhead on EVERY production center in<BR>
> the warsaw pact, and the Warsaw Pact can do the same to N. America and<BR>
> Western Europe, that, as far as I am concerned, is enough to end the world<BR>
> as we know it. And this doesn't count those 8" 2.5KT Artillery Nukes. I've<BR>
> read the US Army's FM on them (I know, I shouldn't have)... They were<BR>
field<BR>
> deployed.<BR>
><BR>
> Anyone who claims the Cold war was just a dream obviously slept through<BR>
the<BR>
> whole thing. I've met far too many polish and russian ex-patriots, and too<BR>
> many of my US fellow citizens, who've lived in terror because they know<BR>
> just how close nuclear war really came to being. People who are aware of<BR>
> just how often DefCon 2 has been reached. People whose jobs have been to<BR>
Be<BR>
> Ready.<BR>
><BR>
> Ob Trav: There can be no comparable threat against the Imperium. Due to<BR>
the<BR>
> distances involved, and the scales of targets, any atrocities done will be<BR>
> at worst a slow wave-front moving inward. Even the Star Trigger, if it<BR>
> worked, is a marginally viable threat... you still have to deliver it.<BR>
><BR>
> William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
> interface!"<BR>
> Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
> 533<BR>
> Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
> ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
> IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
> pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 18:11:10 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Cold War<BR>
<BR>
>And this doesn't count those 8" 2.5KT Artillery Nukes. I've<BR>
>read the US Army's FM on them (I know, I shouldn't have)... They were field<BR>
>deployed.<BR>
<BR>
The atomic howitzer or the mortor?  I've seen stats on both.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 16:03:27 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Remulak<BR>
<BR>
>From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
<BR>
>Obviously some of the early Terran surveyors to<BR>
>rimward had very odd senses of humor.Then there's a <BR>
>world in the Albadawi Subsector, Solomani Rim 0330,<BR>
>that I wonder about. Specifically, if a native of <BR>
>this world would travel to Terra, would they become <BR>
>super-strong and invulnerable?  And when is the <BR>
>planet going to explode? I am, of course, speaking of<BR>
<BR>
>Krypton...<BR>
<BR>
In my Traveller Universe, the survey team than named<BR>
that world had obtained a memory chip full of rare<BR>
Terran literature ... including the complete DC Comics<BR>
oeuvre.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 16:31:55 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Planetary Assaults<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry"<BR>
<gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>Grabbing the downport not only gives you a nice place<BR>
<BR>
>to land the *huge* transports the Army uses (wait <BR>
>'til y'all see these puppies!)<BR>
<BR>
In Fifth Frontier War terms, are these the J4, 0-0-6,<BR>
transports that can carry 600 troop factors?  (In 5FW,<BR>
500 troop factors are in an army, 100 per corps, 20<BR>
per division, 10 per brigade, 5 per regiment, 1 or 2<BR>
per battalion.)<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 10:36:31 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial culture<BR>
<BR>
> From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
> On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Alan Bradley wrote:<BR>
> > So, did the descendants of the Vilani survey team move to Anatolia<BR>
> > after the fall of Ninevah, or after the Persians rolled the<BR>
> > Babylonians?<BR>
> <BR>
> Much earlier.  Gudea was a rearguard bureaucrat whose job was to distract<BR>
> attention from the removal of the Unspeakable Procedure to central<BR>
> Anatolia, where the Vilani refugees disguised themselves as "Hittites"<BR>
> and subjected the region to endless management retreats and productivity<BR>
> seminars.<BR>
<BR>
Explaining the battle of Kadesh, amongst other things, not to mention the<BR>
Hittites' gods' choice in tasteful hats.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, you do realise what commodity Terra was most uniquely suited to<BR>
provide for the Ziru Sirka, that few other worlds could provide in such<BR>
quantities and quality?  Biomass.  Pure, human compatible sh*t.<BR>
<BR>
That's a scary thought, isn't it - that the goal of the Conspiracy is to<BR>
secure a source of fertiliser....<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 20:08:40 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED God bless America<BR>
<BR>
>Dang! I can see where you are coming from. But in a free, healthy middle<BR>
>class society with a good dose of 'what is right' we can and do change<BR>
>policy. In Aust. we are seeing shame lists of dirty corporations<BR>
>proliferating and the government itself has a black-ban on purchasing<BR>
>services or products against those that violate these rules. Hell, look at<BR>
>the 60's.<BR>
<BR>
You may find that harder to do under the MAI, if/when that passes. But<BR>
that's a separate rant, which I won't get into here.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: I see the Imperium as having a three-part power structure. The<BR>
megacorporations are one leg, the nobility is another, and the Emperor (and<BR>
Imperial organizations) the third. Depending on the era, the sphere, and<BR>
the situation, the exact balance between these groups keeps shifting. Which<BR>
makes for some interesting politics, and explains why the same group can be<BR>
both hero and villain. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:25:52 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Superpowers<BR>
<BR>
> >Note the point is that _you_ are in a society where small numbers<BR>
> >raise food. The majority of the world's population are not in such a<BR>
society.<BR>
><BR>
> >I fully agree that the US, Europe, & Japan would be stuffed.<BR>
><BR>
> And so would India and mainland China from intentional, revenge, and<BR>
> incidental hits and general fallout patterns.<BR>
<BR>
That I'd not be so sure about, though it's possible.<BR>
<BR>
>In a general war, I<BR>
> expect industral centers in the southern hemisphere would also be<BR>
> hit...on the general principle of "if I die so do you."<BR>
<BR>
The problem with this is that given the extremely small numbers of US and<BR>
Russian ICBM's (under 1000 for the US, and just over for the CSS) and even<BR>
smaller numbers of Chinese ICBM's, no-one is likley to have enough strike<BR>
capacity spare to be able to indulge in such attacks.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> Loss of all life on earth, no, not even all human life.<BR>
<BR>
Exactly.<BR>
<BR>
>I wouldn't be surprised if it was 80% to 90% worldwide.<BR>
<BR>
I would be surprised at that level worldwide, though not surprised at such a<BR>
level for Europe Japan & the US.<BR>
However, it's possible.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, I haven't factored in release of biological agents, which is<BR>
almost certain in any full war scenario, and which might well take the level<BR>
of human die-off over 90%<BR>
<BR>
> Of course, this is the sort of thing I really wouldn't want to put<BR>
> to a test. <g><BR>
<BR>
True.<BR>
<BR>
Though I fully expect at least one limited nuclear war over the next<BR>
century, I doubt it would escalate.<BR>
<BR>
One of the few scenarios I can think of where escalation is likely, is if a<BR>
biological agent is released in the US, killing much of the population .and<BR>
the remaining US deciding to do as much damage as possible to the rest of<BR>
the world out of spite.<BR>
<BR>
I haven't bothered with an ObTrav: yet, but here's one.<BR>
<BR>
Even in the 3I, nuking a planet "back to the Stone Age" would require a<BR>
_huge_ fleet investment and probably take several years to be certain.<BR>
<BR>
To be blunt, nuclear weapons are not as useful or as destructive as good<BR>
mass drivers, so other than perhaps as tactical (battlefield) weapons and in<BR>
order to take out Tech7-8 comms nets via EMP, and perhaps to power X-Ray<BR>
laser mines, that sort of thing, would nukes really be considered useful<BR>
weapons in the 3I ?<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1402<BR>
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